Thoughts on Veganism - some comments

I wanted to reply to some of the comments left on my last post, but my reply was too long for the commenting box. So I'm putting them here.

* UNHEALTHINESS:
From dirtyduck (who is not only a vegan but have a lovely little family with a duck and a pig, among other creatures): "one of my fav bloggers said "even if veganism wasnt one of the healthiest diets, i would still do it" its love of animals that keeps me going. i stand up for what i believe is right. i will take from myself to right a wrong. i think a lot of these people that are going back to meat werent doing it for ethical reasons, which makes us(real vegans) look bad. the very word vegan is abused."

I continue to eat vegan even though I don't objectively believe it to be the healthiest diet. But I'm not comfortable commenting on the health issues of someone who has no energy or is severely depressed, and to tell them they should have to live that way for the sake of the animals. I have friends were severe chronic illness (not caused by being vegans) and they're having trouble holding down jobs and paying their medical bills. I can't wish that upon another person. I do wonder if there's a certain % of the population that, through their basic biology, do very poorly on a vegan diet, and if those are the people who are one by one coming "out of the closet." I don't think it's that weird if it seems to be happening all at once, since they would probably take courage from seeing others do it. According to some of these posts there are some prominent vegan bloggers who behind the scenes are eating meat. ??!! At least these people are being honest. Yikes.

* HUNTER GATHERERS
GMC (my dad, whose been thinking a lot about the issues surrounding killing animals, and how that fits in--or doesn't--with a Christian belief of compassion and love and nonviolence): "Didn't history unfold the other way around? Weren't our ancestors hunters and gatherers before they discovered agriculture, which led to the growth of larger, stronger communities? Meat was part of the equation of course, but home-grown vs. hunted?"

And Rose (a vegan blogger who follows dirtyduck's blog) : "Also, I tend to agree with GMC's point that the development of agriculture and an understanding of nutrition is what catapulted the human species and allowed us to form "civilised" societies...you know those places where we humans are supposedly compassionate, and strive for equality and non-violence. "

I'm talking about before hunting-gathering. If you have two communities gathering, and then one learns to hunt as WELL as gather, they now have a protein advantage.  -> The only reason I bring it up is because I've had vegans tell me that veganism is the most "natural" way to eat. But the most natural impulses of any species are to reproduce and survive--any advantage they have to do that, they will take. And our ancestors did.

As for what agriculture did to change our societies--I don't have strong opinions as to whether it was a positive or a negative. Like most technological developments, it was probably both. As far as I understand it, it's what really cemented the concept of ownership, and further created the divide between the rich and poor, which is why some anti-capitalist people see it as a negative thing. But I'm sure there are many theories around this topic that I'm wholly ignorant of, not being a geographer.

Though I haven't extensively read the arguments of the ex-vegans, I think they believe that a planet of vegans would be unsustainable because of the extensive monoculture that would necessitate it; and therefore they see veganism as violent and harmful to the welfare of wild animals. They're not "in" for factory farming either--they see all large-scale farming as harmful. I don't know enough about this perspective to say whether I agree or not.

My opinions, both on agriculture and on nature/evolution, are in part based on the writings of zoologist Matt Ridley. In The Red Queen he discusses the development of ownership and how this helped certain men accumulate more wealth and then reproduce more widely than other men. It's a VERY interesting and entertaining read. As is his book on why cooperation exists in nature, The Origins of Virtue. Also highly recommended. Neither has to do with animal rights, but as a zoologist he's mostly discussing animal behaviors.

*FACTORY FARMS

I did not mean to give the impression that I think factory farms are just part of "the ciiircle of liiiiife." It's one of the most horrifying industries in the western world, and it's the reason I will not eat meat, eggs, dairy from an unknown source. And since (a) I don't know of any humane farms where I can easily purchase meat or dairy from well-treated animals, and since (b) I haven't made any sort of decision that I would eat meat or dairy from such a farm, I continue to not consume these foods.

*MORALITY
Rose also said "just because the killing of other species exists in the "amoral" realm of nature, does not excuse it from being immoral in a "moral" realm".

I agree. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

And "even if it were the case that, as you suggest, a tribe of vegetarians could never compete against a tribe of hunters...what difference does that make to us now? Surely, that does not serve as an excuse for not striving towards a compassionate, peaceful, and non-violent society. Even if it were essential to our pre-historic ancestors...it is not essential now" 

As mentioned above, I brought up the hunter aspect in re vegans who argue that eating vegan is the most natural diet. But I don't by any means see that as an excuse for not striving towards a peaceful society.

One of the best, most comprehensive articles I've read on animal rights issues, meat eating, and sustainability is by journalist Michael Pollan. It's a long article but well-well worth the read.

* B12

My understanding is that nutritional yeast only has B12 when it's added as a supplement, same as with cereals. I believe vegans have to get their B12 through supplemented food, or through pills.

Thanks for the feedback. I knew some of what I'd written would come off wickety-wack. I wrote it all in one sitting with minimal editing.

Latest Thoughts on Veganism

-> This is a longish post about my current position on veganism, and on my discovery of a bunch of vegans-turning-omnivore that's happened lately in blogland. While veganism is starting to mainstream a bit because of Ellen, Bill Clinton, Alicia Silverstone, Skinny Bitch, and one Oprah experiment, I think we're going to continue to see a shift towards local and low-processed eating. (The backlash against slow-food hasn't begun in earnest yet, but fast food chains have already figured out how to cash in on it.)


Sometime in 2009 I was frolicking about on the internets (as one is wont to do) and I came across "Racefail 09" -- an epic discussion that started off being about the representation of people of colour in sci fi fantasy, but very quickly became about the fandom of sci fi fantasy, and all the white privilege built into it. Being an internet discussion, it expanded in every direction and so took up many of my evenings to read, and it would be almost impossible to read EVERY blog posting, discussion, and commenting on the topic. But it was very interesting and I would recommend any white writer read some of it. This is the best outline I've seen about it.

So I finished nanowrimo yesterday, and am now frolicking about the internets (as one is wont to do) and catching up with the food blogs I haven't read in awhile, and it seems that while I was in nanoland veganfail '10 appeared. I don't mean it's a discussion of people of color re. veganism (though that's definitely an interesting topic since veganism is also pretty White); it's a bit different in nature...

It seems like a number of vegan bloggers have returned to being omnivores, are blogging about this, and setting off a number of heated discussions. Actually, I haven't hit any really hot discussions yet, but I'm sure they're out there on the more hard-core-vegan sites.

I went vegetarian and then vegan a number of years ago. My basic reason: If I'm such a suck for animals that I can't even watch a cartoon where an animal is sad, then I probably shouldn't be contributing to their real life pain. And since animals are often poorly treated in the production of eggs and milk, I always knew I would eventually step it up to veganism. And then slowly I let go of leather and wool and products tested on animals (and sometimes products with animal ingredients.)

But I was always suspicious of vegan propaganda--that it's the healthiest way to eat, etc. It always seemed like a privileged way to eat. Not vegetarianism, because there are some poorer communities on earth who are vegetarian for religious reasons and such; but veganism seemed like something I could only practice cause I live in a rich country, and am relatively well off.

It also didn't strike me as very natural that vegans have to take supplements (esp calcium and B12) to stay healthy. Especially B12. The only way (if I recall) that you can naturally get B12 without eating animal products, is by eating plant food that's been grown in animal manure and not perfectly washed. You see what's wrong with that picture, where vegans are concerned? So no, I didn't think it was natural. But I veganized anyway because I nevertheless didn't want to support factory farming. *

Also, I have a fairly good understanding of evolution and natural selection. And you can't tell me that a vegetarian community would be able to compete against a community that has discovered hunting. The amount of energy and fat and protein in animals is dense and important for survival. It would have been an absolute advantage. And those are the genes we inherited.

And it's hard for me to see the killing of other animals as immoral, when such killing exists in amoral beings--animals themselves. Death and life go hand in hand. I personally don't view that as inherently bad either. I see it as neutral. Again, it's how we (as sentient beings) treat each other and the beings and world around us that matters to me.

I find most of the nutritional advice in vegan cookbooks and web sites, and given by vegan nutritionists, to be extremely suspect. I enjoy the recipes and ignore the rest.

Then, like many others, I started reading more about local eating, and "slow food" -- the idea that the best thing for the planet is to eat foods produced locally and seasonally, and that the healthiest food for us is food that hasn't been too processed. Both of these ideas make perfect sense to me. It doesn't require a lot of research to see the sense--but if research is required, well at least some of slow food's biggest proponents were people like Michael Pollan, who is well researched and open-minded and sensible. I decided once and for all that it's factory farming I'm against, but that I do not consider it immoral to eat animals and animal products, in and of itself. I do believe people should eat a lot less meat, so that it can be produced in smaller and more humane facilities.

I haven't begun to eat meat or dairy or eggs again, and I don't know if I will. I have started to make some small choices such as eating local honey, rather than South American agave syrup. Since a lot of the foods vegans depend on, like almonds, are dependent upon roving beekeeping, I just can't see honey as more harmful than almonds.

I did give in and start buying leather boots and shoes again a few years ago. I'd been buying cheap non-leather Payless shoes and they were wrecking my feet. (I worked in retail, so on my feet a lot.)

The reality is I feel fine. People always ask me if I felt better and more energetic when I became a vegetarian, and I always said no--I experienced zero change. I have a hearty farmer-stock sort of body, and I think I can simply tolerate a variety of ways of eating. I'm regular, I'm fat, I'm not prone to depression, I have a goodish amount of energy (though it goes up if I actually exercise), and I'm clear-headed. I even have a genetic disorder that makes me retain more iron than my body needs. The only thing I don't know is where my B-12 levels are at, because it's something that decreases slowly over time and then HITS you one day with major nerve damage, so it's the one thing I'm due to be tested for.

So vegan, not vegan, I don't find diet makes much difference to me. When Sherry-cat was sick I bought some tuna, but he couldn't eat it, and the husband hates fish, so I ate it myself. I did not experience an epiphany. I didn't feel better. I didn't feel like "THIS is what my body has been CRAVING!!!"

But. What's coming out on these blogs is that there are some people who become very, very ill on a vegan diet. (I've known people who got sick as vegetarians, usually because they have a genetic iron deficiency; but I know only, like, one person who's even vegan in the first place.) These people became severely depressed, lacking in energy, hair falling out, etc. And within a week of eating meat (even within a mouthful) their health began to improve.

Because many of these people were somewhat radical vegans--the kinds of people, I assume, who I avoided and who I always felt gave veganism a bad name, with their poor facts and poor logic--the return to meat-eating was devastating. They believed with all their hearts that a vegan diet was the healthiest on the planet, the most natural; they knew all the "facts" and arguments, not just about nutrition but ecological ones (how veganism would save the planet etc); and they ate WELL. They ate "good vegan" diets. They took their supplements, ate tons of greens, etc etc. (Much better than I eat.)

Yet still they got terribly sick. So they've gone back to being omnivore. But in having to revert to eating meat, they also opened their minds to the criticism of their previous beliefs, and now tend to believe that a vegan diet is not only killing some people, but would not be good for the planet; and in fact they see agriculture as The Big Bad. I think some of them lean towards hunting-gathering, I guess others to small-scale agriculture (small farming.) Well you don't have to convince me that a lot of environmental problems have come along with agriculture, I learned that in Environmental Geography 101 back in the 1990s. And it definitely went hand in hand with the development of ownership and therefore capitalism (and patriarchy and sex sex sex!!)

Veganism, at its origin, was about compassion for all living creatures and the planet they live on--and that's always what it's been about for me. Compassion for animals has to be balanced against compassion for people and the planet, if only because our well-being is all tied in with each other. So I'm all in for considering how large scale farming of all kinds affects animals indirectly, through their ecology.

Mind, I find there's as much extremism and gooey politics mixed into their new omnivore-saves-the-planet beliefs, and that doesn't interest me. I do believe eating meat is better for them (as I believe it is in general), and I do believe their new political beliefs are sincere, and not rationalizations. But like recent converts to Anything, they might be starting down a new path of Righteousness and Radicalism and Judgment that makes me uncomfortable. I say "MAY" be. These aren't blogs I read regularly, I don't know these people at all. I'm wondering out loud about a general trend, rather than judging specific people.

I gather that the political background for many of these people is feminist. While I am a feminist, I've never equated Female with Nature, and believed women are more peaceful than men, and somehow connected all that with veganism. I don't think you'll ever see me write about What Mother Nature Believes is Most Nurturing For My Body. I don't see veganism as a patriarchal plot to keep women (or womyn) (or wimmin) activists weak and not out activating. (Rather I think it's a sad coincidence that this diet that many thought was radical and energizing, ended up sapping some of these people of their energy and therefore their radicalism.

But I do agree with some of the commenters who see a lot of eating disorderness in many vegans. There's a lot about purity and perfectionism and control. And beating yourself up when you've eating something "bad". There's bad food and good food. There's obsession and control issues. So for some people I think there is some body-hatred going on. Which certainly isn't in line with feminism.

So I don't know what's going to happen with my own eating habits. It's all vair vair interesting. I'm always in for thinking, learning, challenging, and growing. :-)


Here are the blogs I've so far read, in order of finding them...

-> Vegan Lunch Box: Dec 1, 2010 (this blog I do follow a bit, so that's how I got into this topic) - she admitted to no longer being vegan, and the post or comments led me to the other sites

-> Voracious: Nov 10, 2010 - this is one of the people who was very sick as a vegan

-> Paleosister: This blog started in July 2010, and the whole thing is about this topic. The subtitle is "Wheat is murder." (So, like, probably not the site for me.)

-> Lierre Keith's site: I gather she's one of the more famous anti-vegans (or maybe it's more accurate to say anti-agriculturalists.)

-> I follow a couple "vegan of color" sites, so I thought I should hop over and see if any of them are talking about this. And lo and behold one of the contributors posted a farewell to veganism message on November 5th. His new blog is here but I haven't read it yet.

-> And a rebuttal. (I've only started reading up on all this, so bear with me if my entry is short on Facts! and Counterfacts!)

* NOTE: There have been some fairly good studies that find a vegan diet can help reverse heart disease and diabetes, for a large number of people (but not everyone.) So I do think that in some circumstances a vegan diet can be very healthy.

[There's a semi-part-2 to this post, as a reply to a couple points raised in the comments.]