Thoughts on Veganism - some comments

I wanted to reply to some of the comments left on my last post, but my reply was too long for the commenting box. So I'm putting them here.

* UNHEALTHINESS:
From dirtyduck (who is not only a vegan but have a lovely little family with a duck and a pig, among other creatures): "one of my fav bloggers said "even if veganism wasnt one of the healthiest diets, i would still do it" its love of animals that keeps me going. i stand up for what i believe is right. i will take from myself to right a wrong. i think a lot of these people that are going back to meat werent doing it for ethical reasons, which makes us(real vegans) look bad. the very word vegan is abused."

I continue to eat vegan even though I don't objectively believe it to be the healthiest diet. But I'm not comfortable commenting on the health issues of someone who has no energy or is severely depressed, and to tell them they should have to live that way for the sake of the animals. I have friends were severe chronic illness (not caused by being vegans) and they're having trouble holding down jobs and paying their medical bills. I can't wish that upon another person. I do wonder if there's a certain % of the population that, through their basic biology, do very poorly on a vegan diet, and if those are the people who are one by one coming "out of the closet." I don't think it's that weird if it seems to be happening all at once, since they would probably take courage from seeing others do it. According to some of these posts there are some prominent vegan bloggers who behind the scenes are eating meat. ??!! At least these people are being honest. Yikes.

* HUNTER GATHERERS
GMC (my dad, whose been thinking a lot about the issues surrounding killing animals, and how that fits in--or doesn't--with a Christian belief of compassion and love and nonviolence): "Didn't history unfold the other way around? Weren't our ancestors hunters and gatherers before they discovered agriculture, which led to the growth of larger, stronger communities? Meat was part of the equation of course, but home-grown vs. hunted?"

And Rose (a vegan blogger who follows dirtyduck's blog) : "Also, I tend to agree with GMC's point that the development of agriculture and an understanding of nutrition is what catapulted the human species and allowed us to form "civilised" societies...you know those places where we humans are supposedly compassionate, and strive for equality and non-violence. "

I'm talking about before hunting-gathering. If you have two communities gathering, and then one learns to hunt as WELL as gather, they now have a protein advantage.  -> The only reason I bring it up is because I've had vegans tell me that veganism is the most "natural" way to eat. But the most natural impulses of any species are to reproduce and survive--any advantage they have to do that, they will take. And our ancestors did.

As for what agriculture did to change our societies--I don't have strong opinions as to whether it was a positive or a negative. Like most technological developments, it was probably both. As far as I understand it, it's what really cemented the concept of ownership, and further created the divide between the rich and poor, which is why some anti-capitalist people see it as a negative thing. But I'm sure there are many theories around this topic that I'm wholly ignorant of, not being a geographer.

Though I haven't extensively read the arguments of the ex-vegans, I think they believe that a planet of vegans would be unsustainable because of the extensive monoculture that would necessitate it; and therefore they see veganism as violent and harmful to the welfare of wild animals. They're not "in" for factory farming either--they see all large-scale farming as harmful. I don't know enough about this perspective to say whether I agree or not.

My opinions, both on agriculture and on nature/evolution, are in part based on the writings of zoologist Matt Ridley. In The Red Queen he discusses the development of ownership and how this helped certain men accumulate more wealth and then reproduce more widely than other men. It's a VERY interesting and entertaining read. As is his book on why cooperation exists in nature, The Origins of Virtue. Also highly recommended. Neither has to do with animal rights, but as a zoologist he's mostly discussing animal behaviors.

*FACTORY FARMS

I did not mean to give the impression that I think factory farms are just part of "the ciiircle of liiiiife." It's one of the most horrifying industries in the western world, and it's the reason I will not eat meat, eggs, dairy from an unknown source. And since (a) I don't know of any humane farms where I can easily purchase meat or dairy from well-treated animals, and since (b) I haven't made any sort of decision that I would eat meat or dairy from such a farm, I continue to not consume these foods.

*MORALITY
Rose also said "just because the killing of other species exists in the "amoral" realm of nature, does not excuse it from being immoral in a "moral" realm".

I agree. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

And "even if it were the case that, as you suggest, a tribe of vegetarians could never compete against a tribe of hunters...what difference does that make to us now? Surely, that does not serve as an excuse for not striving towards a compassionate, peaceful, and non-violent society. Even if it were essential to our pre-historic ancestors...it is not essential now" 

As mentioned above, I brought up the hunter aspect in re vegans who argue that eating vegan is the most natural diet. But I don't by any means see that as an excuse for not striving towards a peaceful society.

One of the best, most comprehensive articles I've read on animal rights issues, meat eating, and sustainability is by journalist Michael Pollan. It's a long article but well-well worth the read.

* B12

My understanding is that nutritional yeast only has B12 when it's added as a supplement, same as with cereals. I believe vegans have to get their B12 through supplemented food, or through pills.

Thanks for the feedback. I knew some of what I'd written would come off wickety-wack. I wrote it all in one sitting with minimal editing.